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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Jul 26, 2006 12:20pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Question for radio researchers: Rights Issues?

Hi folks, I see many items being sent in, some marked public domain, some marked with some rights reserved, some not marked. As you do your research for this radio material, is it always known to be OK to upload the various items, or is it more of an assumption?

How do you go about knowing what is OK to make available?

Here's a random example I picked up:
http://www.archive.org/details/OTRR_Certified_Chet_Chetters_Tales_From_The_Morgue.

Perhaps it's in the *style* of old time radio, but isn't it more modern (1992?), perhaps with a traditional copyright? Or have the makers given some kind of permission already (of the sort we might get for Live Music Archive material)?

http://web.archive.org/web/20030602184559/http://www.glade.net/~audiotheatre/index.html
http://www.old-time.com/otrlogs2/chet_dj.log.txt

Then even among the actually-older stuff, how do you know what is OK to share through here? Has some truly lapsed into the public domain (and how do you ascertain that) or are y'all contacting estates and such, or...?

I see that there is an OTRR group that seeks to "certify" material, but maybe only to the extent of certifying for quality and completeness:
http://www.otterprojectonline.info/Certification_Project_Revision_2_3.htm
Is there any rights-certification part of the process? If so, where might that information be documented?

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2006-07-26 19:20:04

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Poster: beshires Date: Jul 26, 2006 2:25pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: Question for radio researchers: Rights Issues?

Hi Diana,

As founder of the OTRR, let me say that our goal is to provide series that contain the most known available episodes in a series, encoded with the best sound quality. In addition, we generally include an audio brief describing the series, and additional audio briefs of the stars bios, and other details that will give the series that little extra special touch. We might also include pictures relating to the series....well, just about anything that we think collectors and listeners might enjoy.

We have people who do full time research into back issues of the New York Times, the Chicago Tribune and one of the Los Angeles papers to determine the number of broadcasts, episode titles, etc. We then attempt to locate all known broadcasts, purchasing many of them from private collectors, and then clean up the sound. Each series is put through a number of tests and if it passes, we call it 'Certified'. 'Certified Complete' if it contains all episodes, 'Certified Accurate', if some episodes cannot be located.
Most groups within the old time radio community have recognized us for the superior sets we release free, even though some of them have cost us literally a thousand dollars to obtain all the material.
Many series in circulation are sub-par, containing misnamed episodes, wrong dates, duplicated episodes, episodes not even in the series and episodes with no information at all. You won't find that in an OTRR certified set!
We do put the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs 2.5 License on our sets, but this pertains to the way the sets are put together. We do not claim to own copyright for the series.
Hope this helps. You seem to have a lot of interest in old time radio, why don't you come on over and join us?

Jim Beshires
Founder
Old Time Radio Researchers Group

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Jul 26, 2006 3:50pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: Question for radio researchers: Rights Issues?

Thanks for the thumbnail on your project, Jim! Given the quality standards you have, are y'all actually archiving from the parent material to lossless format (eg, flac?). Or is it mainly mp3 for now?

You seem to have a lot of interest in old time radio, why don't you come on over and join us?

Heh, OTR is appealing but I'm already overcommitted volunteering at archive.org and etree.org (a tradable live music, lossless format-evangelism site). ;)

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2006-07-26 22:50:19

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Poster: beshires Date: Jul 26, 2006 9:11pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: Question for radio researchers: Rights Issues?

Hey Diana,
A large portion of our materials come from reel-to-reel or cassette copies. We first encode to WAV and then to MP3. We circulate small series encoded at 128 and large ones at 64 for the most part.
jimb

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Jul 27, 2006 5:06am
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: Question for radio researchers: Digital Preservation Issues?

If there is a .wav step, then the subsequent step can be to make .flac instead of .mp3. Once you have that, you can make any number of .mp3s from there!

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2006-07-27 12:06:49

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Poster: beshires Date: Jul 27, 2006 7:36am
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: Question for radio researchers: Digital Preservation Issues?

Hey Diana,

Any change we might get our own sub-section under Old Time Radio? We have over 40 series so far on Archive.org and will be uploading our entire archival collection in the next few days. After that, every new set will be uploaded here, after the initial distribution to our members.

jimb

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Jul 28, 2006 7:55am
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: Question for radio researchers: Digital Preservation Issues?

You mean like an "OTRR collection" vs "OTR everything else"? I'm not sure how it works with subcollections myself, but since oldtimeradio collection is pretty new anyway: It might be better to use this for now, see how it goes, then someone like Alexis could evaluate for a further split later on?

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffLum Edwards Date: Jul 27, 2006 3:46pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: Question for radio researchers: Digital Preservation Issues?

Hiya Miss Diana, So this flac you speak of, Is there a Flac for dummies guide? Do you really think it could help Old Mono recordings. The wav file is the big step where all the sound cleanup happens. I should really explore this. I played with shortin < is that how it is spelled?> years ago and was not impressed with the end product. How well does it compress. How do you play it. Is there a portable Flac player? We OTR folk really mistrust change but I am willing to read up about it and maybe give it a try. Lum

p.s. I am really impressed with the GD archive. I never thought of myself as a Deadhead but I admit I have streamed many shows and I love the range of songs and genres they play. Hooray for the Archive it putting them on the web and to you for moderating such a group. Those people who complain that the SBD files are gone should think of how it would be if they had vanished instead of just becoming Stream only files.

This post was modified by Lum Edwards on 2006-07-27 22:39:06

This post was modified by Lum Edwards on 2006-07-27 22:46:26

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Jul 28, 2006 8:29am
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: Question for radio researchers: Digital Preservation Issues?

Well, I admit there's kind of a learning curve for this stuff! Here are typical instructions we point live traders to for instance:
http://wiki.etree.org/index.php?page=SeedingGuidelines
http://wiki.etree.org/index.php?page=NamingStandards

There are some IA docs in the works but they are not completed yet.

The basic idea is once you get the material in wav format (same as you would do prior to the mp3 step), you just use a flac compression tool instead of going to mp3. A couple handy examples are
http://mikewren.com/flac which has an installer for FLAC including the "FLAC frontend" GUI; and Trader's Little Helper GUI, http://thor.prohosting.com/roh0205/
dbpoweramp will work too I believe (as well as being to make mp3s from there if you want)

You may see references to checksumming and fingerprinting (recording the internal checksum of the wav info inside the flac file). This turns out to be particularly handy for figuring out which version you have out of several circulating versions of the material. That way someone can't just say they *think* their copy came from some particular quality-vetting group for instance, they can *demonstrate* that. In live music circulation we're anal enough to keep track of the filesets' fingerprints and associated info files, see http://db.etree.org/shncirc (I used to keep track on a simpler webpage, before it all got too big).

BTW you can treat the flac copy as your archival backup- burn it to a data disc, upload it to archive.org etc, but if your OTR colleagues/trading partners are still more comfortable with mp3, you still have the option send them smaller lossy copies (from flac> mp3 or flac> wav> mp3). The important thing is you have the good full-quality copy you can go back to- and eventually you can send your friends the flacs when they get used to those.

PS- There is *so* much to the Dead's music you could spend a lifetime just exploring that! Miraculous how much we have available here in The Future. :)

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2006-07-28 15:29:40

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffBrad Leblanc Date: Jul 26, 2006 4:31pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: Question for radio researchers: Rights Issues?

Given the quality standards you have, are y'all actually archiving from the parent material to lossless format (eg, flac?). Or is it mainly mp3 for now?

Indeed! I would be interested to know how these are getting transferred into the digital realm. It would be useful if that was documented with each item unless there is a reason you don't want that publicized.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Jul 26, 2006 4:46pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: Question for radio researchers: Rights Issues?

Chuckle, if it evolves maybe OTR collection will have to get special "lineage" fields and such in the metadata eventually. ;)

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffLum Edwards Date: Jul 26, 2006 8:13pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: Question for radio researchers: Rights Issues?

Hiya Brad, With Otr that would be very hard to do. Almost all go back to a transcription disc in someones personal library/collection. Reel to Reels and Cassettes were made for traders/collectors. Most of the people who encode tapes to mp3s would rather be anonamous. As do the Transscription disk owners. Digatizing otr began in the mid to late 90's and have been traded amougst so many people that now is almost impossible to say where any one show origanated unless you encoded it. And then knowing the background of each source tape would be hard to pin down. Also each collection sometimes has many different encoders with different methods. To do a lineage would mean having it for each file if that information is known. It would be wonderful to have lossless encodes but I really dont see that happening.
Lum

Poster: Brad Leblanc Date: July 26, 2006 11:31:14pm

Indeed! I would be interested to know how these are getting transferred into the digital realm. It would be useful if that was documented with each item unless there is a reason you don't want that publicized.


This post was modified by Lum Edwards on 2006-07-27 03:10:28

This post was modified by Lum Edwards on 2006-07-27 03:13:03

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffBrad Leblanc Date: Jul 26, 2006 7:53pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: Question for radio researchers: Rights Issues?

I would be wonderful to have lossless encodes but I really dont see that happening.

Spread the word! Education is a wonderful thing, and so is FLAC! :)

Regardless, thank you for your efforts and for your response.

-Brad

This post was modified by Brad Leblanc on 2006-07-27 02:53:29

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Jul 27, 2006 6:49am
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: Question for radio researchers: Digital Preservation Issues?

Well, one advantage here is that you apparently have a cohort of quality-minded people already involved, some of whom might be willing or able to work back through a source chain to get back to some key connections.

This is similar to the situation we had with Grateful Dead fan preservation efforts. Recordings for years were struck off reels and cassettes, with multiple generations being passed around in the trading pool. As people moved to digital, some of the higher generation stuff was digitized (and that in lossy- the Dead's originally-posted trading policy is a "notice to MP3 site operators"). Over time, as word spread about lossless preservation, more people with lower-generation material were gradually drawn into the efforts.

The timeframe from first idea of lossless-format live music preservation to a project's assembling a fairly comprehensive, low-generation body of GD recordings was about 6-7 years, I think. So it's not like it has to happen in a month or two. :)

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2006-07-27 13:49:21

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Poster: Anton Onymous Date: Jul 26, 2006 1:24pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: Question for radio researchers: Rights Issues?

To a certain degree it is more of an assumption about whether or not something is okay to upload. There are some Old Time Radio series which are known to be in the public domain (such as "Amos & Andy"); there are some that are known to be under copyright still; and the bulk of OTR shows fall into the grey area in between. Because of U.S. Copyright Law changes (primarily extending the period that something can remain under copyright), the grey area isn't becoming any clearer since material from the late 1920's could still *potentially* be under copyright, assuming that its holders bothered to copyright it in the first place. The problem is that, to investigate copyright status for OTR shows (pre-1970s) would require a lot of time, effort, and money, and would probably not prove to be particularly fruitful (finding proof of copyright ends your search, but not finding proof of copyright could just mean you haven't searched well enough...).

As a member of the Old Time Radio Researchers Group (OTRR), I can say that the group's position is to avoid infringing on copyright as much as possible (you won't see New Time Radio coming from us, and you won't see anything from an old show like "The Shadow" because of active legal issues). OTRR distributions come from the shows known to be public domain or grey area that is *most likely* no longer under copyright. We don't have the money or the person-power to verify absolutely about copyright status, but if there is any question we will err on the side of not distributing.

As for the "Chet Chetter's Tales From The Morgue", that is, indeed, NTR (post-1970), but it is being distributed with the permission of the owner / creator, who is flattered by it, and who provided his set of master tapes for the series, including 6 shows that never aired.

Geoff Loker

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Jul 26, 2006 2:11pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: Question for radio researchers: Rights Issues?

Great info, thanks Geoff- especially good to hear about the creator being psyched! :)

So, since IA curators may be less likely to have a feel for some of the specifics of the material than y'all (that one item being a good example), I'll ask the same thing as over in the LMA collection: If anyone notices something going into the collection that really shouldn't be here, please do just call attention to it, whether in an error report, post or email (maybe to infoarchiveorg). Fans' being eyes and ears can help the overall health of the collection. It's seemed to work pretty well for LMA.

Also, if uploaders do have relevant info they can add to the item details for extra clarity in some cases, that would be great, too. (Such as, about the creator happiness with/permission for the Chet item.)

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2006-07-26 21:11:01

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